Interview: R. Aveen
On self-publishing, veganism, & listening to animals
Welcome back to another Wizard of Claws interview!
Is it possible to feel nostalgic for a book you’ve never read before? That’s what I was thinking as I read Animal Listeners: The Awakening of Quiby Clark by debut novelist R. Aveen. The eleven-year-old protagonist reminds me a lot of myself at that age, sensitive toward and fascinated by the animals around her. Upon her Awakening, Quinby is able to communicate with animals, gaining her admission to Seymour High School, an Australian boarding school for young Animal Listeners to study in an environment where animals are just as respected members of the community as humans. Quinby’s Ability gives her special insight into the animals’ lives, and she and her new Listener friends work together to protect local creatures.
Questions with potential spoilers have been labeled
General Questions
Can you share a little bit about your background, including how you came to care about animals and creative writing?
I’ve always loved animals, as most children do. There are photos of me cuddling chickens, ducks and cats as a little kid in Sydney, Australia. And I’ve written stories since I was young too. I have a Bachelor of Arts (Communication – Media Production) degree. I focused on screenwriting for many years, but it’s hard to get a movie made as an unknown writer in Australia. So when I moved to America, I decided I’d write the book idea I’d been thinking about, as I could always self-publish if I didn’t get a publisher.
Many of us have childhood dreams of becoming a writer. At what point did you decide to actually go for it?
When I was 19. I did a Scriptwriting class as part of my university degree and decided that was what I wanted to do for a living, well, that and acting! I kept writing film scripts from that time on. I took a variety of jobs to pay the bills, and worked on my scripts in my free time. I have written seven feature film scripts, but none of them were ever made. I came close a few times and received grants etc. but the films never came to fruition, it was quite disheartening. That’s why I decided to try my hand at writing a novel instead. That way, whatever happened, I could actually put something out into the world for others to see, rather than just have old scripts sitting on my computer.
We moved to the USA for my husband’s job and at first I wasn’t able to work here, so once I finished another draft of a script I’d promised someone, I turned my focus to researching, then writing Animal Listeners. When I became a permanent resident and could get a paying job, it was the middle of Covid, so my awesome husband encouraged me to keep writing the novel instead. I’ve been fortunate to have a supportive husband as I wrote this – both financially and emotionally. However, we spent most of our savings to self-publish, so I’ll probably have to get a regular job in 2025.
Most animal advocacy focuses on creating tangible changes in the real world. What role can the arts play in changing how people think about animals?
I believe the arts have a very important role to play – they can change people’s hearts! Stories have a way of inspiring us, opening our eyes to others’ perspectives, and thereby creating empathy and change. Books and films have a huge influence on those who see them, even if people aren’t always aware of the influence. Writing is my way to try and make the world a kinder place. It’s the perfect opportunity for Awakening people to the plight of animals. I think the most effective method is through an entertaining story where people can come to their own conclusions. Few people like to be told what to do or to be preached at. By just showing the reality of animals’ situations in our world, readers are able to make up their own minds of what that means to them and their future choices.
Why did you decide to self-publish? Any advice for authors looking to do the same?
There were quite a few reasons I decided to self-publish, including keeping control of the content, a quicker turn-around time to publish, and not finding the right agent for my work.
I tried to get an agent, and I had quite a few interested after I pitched at a workshop in February 2024. But they all wanted me to cut my novel by a huge amount – between 50,000 to 100,000 words! I had already edited it down by 60,000 words and didn’t want to cut anything else, so I decided to self-publish. Agents would have categorized my novel as Middle Grade – because of the age of the protagonist, lack of romance etc. – which means it should be a maximum of 50,000 to 80,000 words according to agents. But when I wrote the novel, I always saw it as being for teens and adults, not children, and that allows it to be a bit longer, 100,000 or so words. But my novel was still longer, at around 151,000 words.
Self-publishing is a LOT of work if you want to do it well. I hired a copy editor, proofreader, cover designer, a First Nations Cultural sensitivity editor, a Deaf Consultant, and had an Australian veterinarian check the animal sections for accuracy. I wanted to make sure everything was authentic, accurate (other than the magic!) and the very best it could be. So it was expensive and time intensive. From when I decided to self-publish in April, until I published it on 22 September 2024, I don’t think I had a weekend off – other than when I was sick with Covid when the copyedits arrived! I worked 6 or 7 days a week, really long hours each day. And that was with the luxury of not having to work another job to pay the bills! It was exhausting. But when the book came out it felt amazing to finally have something I was proud of that I could share with the world.
I started writing my novel in 2020, and finished the first draft on 31st December 2022! I’ve been editing it since then. My advice would be to give yourself a long lead time to prepare for publishing – 6 months full-time wasn’t enough for me. And I highly recommend The Authors Guild Guide to Self-Publishing. It has extremely helpful, step-by-step advice. If you do want to try to find an agent, I think the Writing Day Workshops are an amazing avenue.
How do you fit writing into your daily routine?
I’m fortunate that writing has been my job for the last few years – although an unpaid one until now! I try to work relatively regular business hours. I don’t always manage it and procrastinate with house chores etc., but that’s usually because I need more time to think about what’s happening next. I also had a few breaks over the writing time – like when I took university classes to help with writing the animals accurately, including an Animal Behavior class.
Before that, I used to write around my work hours. I mostly worked part-time and wrote on my days off. When I had to work full-time, I wrote on weekends or evenings. But I found it very hard to feel inspired to write when I was working soul-sucking jobs that were just a way to pay the bills. I need to feel happy to write well, so it’s hard to come home exhausted from a job you don’t like, and write. Having a supportive husband who believes in me and encourages me to pursue my writing dreams has made writing much easier – though it’s still terrifying to face the blank page.
Do you plot out your stories beforehand, or do you just start writing to see where the story takes you?
I do a mixture. I write notes whenever ideas come to me. Then I do a lot of research first, before writing (although I wrote the first scene for Animal Listeners pretty early on). I spent 6 months researching and creating my world before I started writing the novel. I worked out their timetable, subject content, school and town map, character backgrounds (although these can change as I write), and chose the location for my imaginary town.
When I started to write, I knew the beginning and end of the story, as well as some of what would happen in-between. But each day as I write, I don’t know exactly what’s going to happen, it just flows. I also had to do lots of research as I wrote, particularly on each animal that appeared as I wanted to portray them accurately.
I’m assuming most of your writing group, beta readers, editors, and other first readers aren’t vegan. Did you have any trepidation sharing this story with them? Did you worry their feedback may be biased because of the strong animal rights themes? How did they respond to it?
You’re correct! I was nervous that they’d find it too preachy, but I was also eager to hear any parts they thought were, so that I could pull back on it. My aim is to appeal to all readers, not just vegans, so I think their advice helped me make it more universally appealing – which will enable it to have a greater effect.
The puppy farm parts are quite upsetting, but they agreed they were necessary to show the reality of what animals go through at those places. I described them accurately using reports and articles, then had a veterinarian doublecheck it all.
I had lots of comments on the food and how that made readers want to eat more vegan food, which was exactly what I’d hoped for. And every reader loved it, which was really good for building my confidence, as a debut novel is a very scary thing to put out there!
Story Questions
How did the idea for this story first come to you?
I was thinking about people’s cruelty to animals and how if they could understand what animals were saying, people would probably be kinder to them. And then I thought of a young girl getting that Ability, and there being a hidden society of people that could speak with animals, and her being invited to a boarding school to discover that world. It just grew from there.
As a reader, it was such a joy to vicariously experience Seymour High School and the Animal Listener world. I was trying to find the right words to describe that ballooning sense of warmth in my chest as I read, and I realized that I felt like I was at home in this world. I could imagine being truly understood there, of being with a group—a large, international family—of like-minded people. This isn’t so much a question as it is just me offering my thanks to you, because I’m sure there are many other animal advocates who feel that exact same way. Was that part of the reason why you wanted to write this story, to give other vegans a place where they weren’t the outcasts or misfits, a place where everyone else shared that same belief in animal rights? (Guess I managed to turn it into a question after all.)
Thank you! That’s wonderful to hear. Yes, that is part of the reason. This world can be a tough place to live as a vegan. I live in an area of Michigan that is filled with hunters and fishers, has no vegan restaurants, few vegan options – and even fewer that I trust are actually vegan. Writing this world was an escape for me when reality was pretty hard to deal with. I hope it gives other vegans a place to escape to, when their reality is tough. It’s a place I would love to live in. I hope a kind area like that will one day exist – unfortunately probably without the magic!
The students at Seymour High study books and movies with animal rights themes, such as Crow Country, Charlotte’s Web, and Finding Nemo. (Literally my dream come true. Well, not true, but close enough. Anyway.) Have you always gravitated to stories like that, or have you come to appreciate them more since going vegan?
I’ve always gravitated to stories like that, although I get different things out of them since becoming vegan. Quite a few of the ones they study are personal favorites of mine, and some are even actual suggested texts in the state English curriculum for Year Seven e.g. Crow Country.
Why did you decide to call the people who can speak to animals Animal Listeners? Is there any significance to the “listening” part?
There is! I decided on Listeners because the animals aren’t changing their behavior or communication, it’s the humans who are magically able to finally Listen to what animals are saying. It’s about appreciating animals for who they are and really seeing them as “somebody”, not “something”. It’s like the difference between when a human just hears what another human is saying to them, compared to when they actually listen, and understand what the person is trying to say. To me Listening implies hearing with the intent to truly understand.
Quinby and her family are what I call “vegan-on-the-page” before she goes off to Seymour High. They certainly wouldn’t identify as vegan but you don’t mention them eating, wearing, or using animals in other ways. Why did you choose to approach her pre-Listener life in this way?
Non-vegans probably don’t realize how painful it can be for vegans when they read most books or watch TV. The casual animal cruelty we feel, most people don’t even notice. To non-vegans using terms like leather couch and silk tie, are simply descriptions, to a vegan they’re painful examples of animal cruelty. I wanted to write this book in a way that makes it a more enjoyable read for vegans. There are no thoughtless, unnecessary instances of animal cruelty in clothing, food or lifestyle. Any animal cruelty mentioned is there with a purpose and thoughtfully placed by me, not used as a scene filler or descriptor. I was determined not to make vegan readers suffer unnecessarily as they read. Hopefully more authors will become aware of their unconscious cruelty in choices that they could easily write differently, and we vegans will be able to enjoy reading more. It’s tough being vegan in a non-vegan world, I wanted to do my part to make it a little bit easier on vegans’ hearts.
Each Listener must see an animal to be able to communicate with the rest of the animals in that family. Why did you decide to separate them in that way, rather than by species, genus, order, etc.?
Several reasons. One is that species and genus are still often changing, particularly as genetics enables scientists to categorize them more accurately. So family was enough removed from that, that there shouldn’t be too many changes affecting who the Listeners can communicate with. Another is that I liked the connotation of the word “family”. Associating all the animals in the group as one family, and now the human who could understand them too. That felt nice to me.
It must’ve been so exciting to write dialogue for the animals. I found myself grinning each time Quinby met a new one and they exchanged kind greetings. Can you share a little about your process of choosing which animals to include and how their personalities would come through in their verbal and nonverbal communication?
It was awesome to write their dialogue, I tried to imagine what they would do and say in such a situation. I only chose animals that can be found in that area of Australia, at that time of year, exhibiting that kind of behavior, and making sounds that humans can hear.
I researched every animal thoroughly, reading about them, watching videos, and where possible, meeting them in real life. I tried to have their personalities and communication match what I learned of them through my research, and how I imagined they would respond in such circumstances.
I also chose animals that I believe are most in need of attention because of the difficult circumstances they are currently in, usually because of humans – whether through deforestation or outright cruelty. I wanted to let readers meet animals that really need our help, in the hope that some readers might be inspired to help them, whether through going vegan, or signing petitions – whatever way they felt moved to improve their situations.
Did you have any favorite characters to write, human or nonhuman?
Yes. Obviously Quinby, I had a lot of fun writing her and imagining myself in those situations. It was also fun to write Ruth’s cheeky comments. There are parts of a young me in both Quinby and Ruth, so I found it easy to get myself into their mindset when writing.
Queen-Grace (Her Royal Majesty, Queen Graceful The Glorious) has to be one of my favorites. She just has such awesome cattitude. Actually, I really enjoyed writing the cats – influenced by my two cat companions’ behavior along the way.
All the non-human animals were interesting to write, as I try to put myself into the character to write them and imagine how they would react in the situation, so it was a fascinating experience.
How much time did you spend researching the animals you wanted to include in the story? Are there any animals you wanted to include but couldn’t?
A lot of time. Every animal in the story has been thoroughly researched. I read up on them, watched videos, listened to them and learnt as much as I could to portray them authentically. I only included animals that would appear in that area of Australia, at that time of year and behave in that particular way under those circumstances. Authenticity was very important to me, I want people to see animals for who they are, not some anthropomorphized version. I believe that will help them to carry over the feelings the book invokes into real life and hopefully inspire kinder behavior.
There are so many more animals I wanted to include but ran out of space to do so. And quite a few animal encounters were cut in the 60,000 words I edited out of the novel e.g. whales. Hopefully, I will get the chance to include them in future novels.
I know there can be a lot of pressure to Americanize fiction to make it more appealing to a US audience. (We’re very used to being coddled.) But I love just how Australian this story is, not only with the native animals but with the language. Though you live in the States now, why was it important for this story to stay authentic to your Australian roots?
It was a partly financial, partly emotional decision. I came up with the idea when living in Australia, and it’s set there, so I felt it reflected the society more by keeping it Australian. I actually did change it to American spelling when approaching agents, but changed it back when I decided to self-publish. I decided to stay with Australian English and hire Australian proofreaders. I wanted to have the first version published in Australian English, as I am Australian and wanted to support my Australian heritage. But I also couldn’t afford another round of proofreading etc. to make a different version for America. I hope one day to have versions in a bunch of different languages, including American English, but that will have to wait until I can afford to do that, time and money wise.
Obviously, animals play a crucial role in the story and need to behave in certain ways to move the plot along. How did you find a balance between staying true to animals’ natural behavior and getting them to do what you wanted in the story? In what ways did you need to anthropomorphize them, and in what ways did you prioritize staying true to their natural behavior?
I actually didn’t want to anthropomorphize them at all – and if it appears that way, it is entirely unintentional and counter to my aims. I wanted to stay completely true to each animal’s natural behavior, and researched thoroughly to make sure I did. That was extremely important to me because I want readers to see animals as they really are, not a storybook version that they can separate from real animals suffering in our world. I tried to have every animal behave in the way I believed they naturally would in the situation they found themselves in. Basically, the animals moved the plot along through their natural behavior – the story changed depending on what they did, not their behavior changing to fit the story. I would just start writing a scene and see where the animals led me (pausing to research anything I didn’t know). So this is how I imagine real animals would behave in such situations – the only difference is that we understand what they are saying.
[SPOILER] In many stories, the bad guys would seek to use their Listening ability to use animals for their own gain. But the baddies—the Radicals and Phantoms—in the Animal Listener community are more like the most radical of animal/environmental activists; they see humanity as the enemy to all other life on earth and believe destroying human society is the only way to protect animals. This presents an interesting ethical conundrum for the more conventional Listeners. (I sense that this could become a source of greater tension in any future books.) Is this meant to be reflective of the infighting in the animal rights movement? If so, why did you want to include these different factions in the story?
No, it wasn’t meant to be reflective of infighting in the animal rights movement – I don’t know much about that. The factions developed out of my own thoughts on how different people would try to solve our current climate predicament. Every movement has extremists, and they help make change in the world in their own way – society tends to eventually find a middle ground, and that becomes the new norm. Each person does what they believe is the right thing to help improve the world. Personally, I wouldn’t categorize those factions as the “baddies” in the story, the antagonist, yes, but their intentions are pure, just some of their actions are questionable. In my mind the baddies are those engaging in animal cruelty (to humans & non-human animals), so when factions cross into that, then they’re baddies, but otherwise they just have different views to the others.
Which faction would you join?
Tough question! I don’t know. I understand why the Originals are reluctant to trust humanity with the knowledge of Listeners – as they might use it to abuse animals. But time is running out to save us all from climate change, so something needs to change. Maybe the Uniters could be that change. The Radicals have good intentions, but I wouldn’t want animals to suffer to make changes happen – and that goes for the rumored Phantoms as well. So, I’m not sure. In reality, this book series is my way of trying to help both animals and the world from abuse and climate change, the faction discussion is partly me exploring different ways of doing that.
If you could choose to speak to any species or animal family, which would you choose?
Another tough question! I’d love to speak with all of them. I guess if I had to choose one, it would be one of the most abused families so that I could use that Ability to help improve their situation, so Fish or Bovidae (including cows and sheep) or Phasianidae (including chickens and turkeys). More people are slowly waking up to the sentience of pigs, but these other families are still a long way from gaining people’s empathy. That Ability might help!
The book deals with some heavy subjects. Since your target audience is younger readers, how did you decide on how much detail to include regarding the abuses animals face, likely (though unintentionally) at readers’ own hands?
My target audience is actually teens and adults – anyone over the age of eleven. But yes, I was worried about some of the abuse shown, and whether that would be too much for readers. I even considered having the puppy farm visit as an additional section that older readers could access online. But I spoke about it with a lot of people, including my youngest beta reader, and they all thought it was necessary to show the reality of the situation. This is actually how animals “live” at puppy farms, so I felt I owed it to all readers to be truthful in my representation, and not sugarcoat it. If we want people to make compassionate decisions when choosing a dog, they need to know the facts about their options.
I didn’t include any unnecessary abuse, only what I felt was essential to be truthful to the storyline. I don’t like it when authors throw in death and cruelty casually as a device, not caring what suffering their readers will go through, or actually wanting them to suffer for no reason other than to sell books – trying to create the “next great tragedy”. If it’s in my novel, it’s there because I believe it is essential to the story I am trying to tell. I mostly aim to be entertaining and uplifting, I think that will lead to more positive changes than guilt and blame.
For this first novel, I chose to focus on two issues of animal abuse that I think most people would be against once they learn the details – puppy farms (mills) and the dispersal of bats. In future novels, I intend to focus on other areas that I believe need attention to improve the situation for those suffering.
What do you hope young readers, who may have never considered animal rights before, will take away from Quinby’s story? Have you received any positive feedback about the book’s portrayal of veganism (and vegan food)?
I hope all readers will think about animal rights after reading Quinby’s story. Every time you choose to be kind to animals, you’re making the world a better place. I hope the novel will inspire more kindness and positive actions.
I’ve received very positive feedback on veganism from non-vegan readers – like wanting to eat more vegan food, and thinking more deeply about animal suffering. Recently a non-vegan friend invited me over for a completely vegan meal, that she was inspired by the novel to create, including making coconut cream from scratch for the first time. It was delicious.
And I’ve received excited feedback from vegans on the novel. One of my favorites was at my book launch at VegTO Fest in Toronto, Canada. A tween girl was super excited to hear about Quinby on the Saturday, when she bought the book, saying it sounded just like her. Then she came back on the Sunday to tell me she was halfway through the book already, and she was just glowing. She was thrilled to read about a vegan character that she could relate to. She loved the bit where the brother teases Quinby that she’ll eat grass at the boarding school, “That’s what they always say to me!” she exclaimed. I was thrilled that my novel gave vegan kids a character they could relate to, one that made them feel not so alone in a world that isn’t always kind to vegans. That was one of my hopes for the book, so it was really gratifying to see it succeeding.
Final Questions
How can readers find you online?
My website has updates and links to all my social media pages – which I’m still figuring out how to use! You can also sign up for my email list on the website and I’ll occasionally send you an email with updates - maybe a few times a year.
Any upcoming projects?
I actually have a whole 11 book series planned for Animal Listeners … if I can find the time to write it. Every school year will be set at the Australian Listener school, and every summer will be set in a different country, where readers will get to meet animals from that country and experience different cultures. The second book will be set in California, USA, as I was already able to do some research there.
Anything else you’d like to share?
Thank you so much for creating a space to talk about vegan stories. I appreciate your insightful questions and this opportunity to chat about my novel with someone who gets it. It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you!
What a wonderful interview, I'm very much enjoying this book and am excited to hear that there are more books planned to get to know animal around the world! Would love to see what stories evolve, and I love the casual, eloquent and non-dogmatic way R. Aveen tackles not only animal rights, but some hard-hitting and prevalent social issues. Well done and thank you both!
This interview was interesting! The insights on self-publishing and veganism were really valuable. Thanks for sharing this Substack and highlighting such a fresh perspective!